Scorpio gets the master teacher, Saturn! (Oct 1, 2012)

About Me Forums Scorpio! Scorpio gets the master teacher, Saturn! (Oct 1, 2012)

This topic contains 25 replies, has 2 voices, and was last updated by  Expecto Patronum 3 years, 8 months ago.

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    Michelle Young

    Michelle - Orkut shot Michelle YoungAug 20, 2013

    I debated about whether to put this in the Cardinal T-square thread or this one, but I’m going with this as a warning for those of you in the midst of your Saturn returns to breathe your way through it if you need to. It will pass! So much happens at this time of life in the midst of the first Saturn return. Please keep hanging on! I’m reminded of a saying, “When you reach the end of your rope, tie a knot and hang on.” Think it’s funny if you want, but do it anyway.

    Lee Thompson Young, former Disney star, dead at 29

    Tribune staff and wire

    4:13 p.m. CDT, August 19, 2013

    Lee Thompson Young, who played Boston police detective Barry Frost on the TNT police drama “Rizzoli & Isles,” was found dead Monday morning.

    Young’s manager has confirmed to TheWrap that the actor killed himself.

    “It is with great sadness that I announce that Lee Thompson Young tragically took his own life this morning,” said longtime manager Jonathan Baruch. “Lee was more than just a brilliant young actor, he was a wonderful and gentle soul who will be truly missed. We ask that you please respect the privacy of his family and friends at this difficult time.”

    According to a Los Angeles Police spokeswoman, officers arrived at Young’s apartment after 8 a.m. Monday morning and found him dead.

    Young, a South Carolina native, developed an affinity for acting at age 10 and two years later had secured representation. He rose to fame in 1998 when he starred in the Disney Channel show “The Famous Jett Jackson.” On the program, which ran for three years, the actor played a teenage celebrity trying to live a normal life as a high school student.

    The actor went on to attend USC, where he was a recognizable presence on campus, often dressing in all-white ensembles. He attended the School of Cinematic Arts on a full academic scholarship and graduated magna cum laude in 2005.

    Following graduation, he booked guest-starring roles on various television programs. His next big break came in 2010, when he was cast on TNT’s popular police drama “Rizzoli & Isles.” As Det. Barry Frost, Young played the affable partner to Jane Rizzoli, played by Angie Harmon.
    Production has been shut down for “Rizzoli & Isles” following the news of Young’s death. No word on when filming will begin again.,0,389133.story
    © 2013 Chicago Tribune Company, LLC

    Michelle - Orkut shot Michelle YoungAug 20, 2013

    Lee Thompson Young – suicide, age 29 RIP
    Lee Thompson Young untimed natal

    Please understand this is an untimed chart. Still, we can tell much from this one because of the timing… I’ll show you after I post this so I can see what I’m writing while making quick comparisons.

    Michelle - Orkut shot
    Michelle YoungAug 20, 2013

    Lee Young had a potential Sun-Moon conjunction (New Moon) in square to his Pluto-Mars-Saturn conjunction in Scorpio. Please understand that Pluto is only conjunct Saturn in this stellium because of Mars acting as a bridge to the other two. But there are more aspects we’re seeing here:

    His natal Venus was in opposition to transiting Jupiter in square to transiting Uranus, and transiting Pluto was still conjunct his Venus while Mars was opposing his natal Mercury. That’s a lot for anyone to handle, but the transit of Venus also was squaring his natal Nodes.
    I suspect his death might have occurred sometime between Saturday and Sunday, but I’m leaning toward Saturday as the actual timing. I’m sure the coroner’s report will be able to determine that with more certainty than I could, so I’ll be interested in seeing where that hits.

    Hopefully we might be able to hone in on even more, but that depends on whether his birth certificate can ever be released to astrologers.

    He was indeed a brilliant actor, and he will be sorely missed.


    Michelle Young

    Michelle - Orkut shot Michelle YoungFeb 20, 2014

    Soldier convicted in rape, murder of Iraqi girl is found hanged
    By David Zucchino
    February 18, 2014, 5:42 p.m.

    This post has been updated. See below for details.

    It was one of the most disturbing war crimes to emerge from the brutal conflicts in Iraq and Afghanistan: U.S. Army Pfc. Steven Dale Green raped and killed a 14-year-old Iraqi girl in 2006 after shooting and killing her parents and younger sister. Then he and his combat buddies from a nearby U.S. Army checkpoint set the girl’s corpse on fire.

    Green, 28, serving five life sentences, apparently has committed suicide eight years after the crimes. He was found hanging in his cell at the federal maximum security prison in Tucson last week and died Saturday, prison officials announced Tuesday.

    They said Green’s death was being investigated as an apparent suicide.

    A prison spokesman, John Stahley, declined to provide details, including whether Green left a note.

    Asked why authorities had waited this long to announce his death, Stahley said the prison’s administrative staff was off during the three-day Presidents Day weekend. He said Green’s family was notified Saturday.

    [Updated 5:30 p.m. Feb. 18: Green’s civilian lawyer, Darren Wolff, told The Times that it was his understanding that Green had recently been placed into protective segregation after a dispute between him and other inmates.

    Wolff said he last heard from Green when the former soldier sent him a letter, within the last two months. Green gave no indication that he was depressed or under duress, Wolff said. Green was looking forward to a visit last week from a documentary filmmaker, he said.
    Green’s death “adds another tragedy to a long list of tragedies that already existed in this case,” Wolff said. “It’s another indication of how horrific this case has been for everyone involved.”]

    Green was a 19-year-old college dropout when he joined the Army and deployed to Iraq. At the traffic checkpoint, near the Iraqi town of Mahmoudiya, he and fellow soldiers abused alcohol and drugs and came up with a plan to have sex with the Iraqi girl, Abeer Kassem Hamza Janabi, according to court testimony. They had watched her from the checkpoint as she performed household chores.

    According to testimony at his federal trial in Kentucky, Green was brought along to the girl’s home because he had spoken of wanting to kill Iraqis. A group of five soldiers entered the home on March 12, 2006, while a sixth stood guard at the checkpoint.

    Two soldiers took the girl into a room and raped her while Green held the teenager’s father, Kassem Hamza Raheem, 45; her mother, Fakhriya Taha Muhasen, 34; and 6-year-old sister, Hadeel Kassem Hamza, at gunpoint in another room.

    As Abeer was being gang-raped, Green shot all three family members, according to testimony. He then raped Abeer. When he had finished, he shot her in the head. The soldiers fled, but not before burning the girl’s body. The killings occurred in an area nicknamed the “Triangle of Death” by some U.S. service members because of multiple American casualties at the hands of insurgents.

    Green did not testify at his trial, but during his sentencing in 2009 he apologized for the crimes and said he expected to face “God’s justice” when he died. Federal prosecutors had sought the death sentence, but a jury instead sentenced him to five life terms. Four other soldiers were convicted or pleaded guilty in connection with the killings, but Green remained the public face of the horrific crimes.

    He was tried in federal court because the soldiers’ role in the killings was not discovered until after he had been discharged for an “antisocial personality disorder.” Several soldiers tried to cover up the killings by blaming insurgents, according to testimony.

    Green was initially sent to a federal prison in Indiana but was transferred to Arizona after he was reportedly attacked in prison. He arrived at the Tucson facility in February 2010.

    Michelle - Orkut shot Michelle YoungFeb 20, 2014

    In a December 2010 interview from prison with the Associated Press, Green blamed his behavior, in part, on the deaths of two fellow soldiers killed by insurgents near the checkpoint. Those deaths “messed me up real bad,” he said.

    He also blamed the Army, which he said had abandoned him and the rest of his unit at the checkpoint.

    “There’s not a word that would describe how much I hated these people,” Green said of Iraqis. “I wasn’t thinking these people were humans.”

    The day of the rapes and killings, Green said, he was in an “altered state of mind.”

    “I wasn’t thinking about more than 10 minutes into the future at any given time,’’ he said. “I didn’t care.”

    Green said he had converted to Catholicism in prison. He described his prison existence as “hazardous” because other inmates considered him a child molester and a target for reprisal.

    He expressed regret for the killings, telling the AP, “If I thought that was an OK thing now, I wouldn’t be much of a human being.’’

    Green’s civilian lawyer and federal public defender did not respond to several requests for comment. Stahley said Green’s family would be permitted to claim his body after the investigation of his death was completed.,0,4860636.story
    ©2014 Los Angeles Times

    Steven Dale Green – untimed chart
    Steven Dale Green - untimed chart

    Valentine’s Full Moon inside, Steven Dale Green’s untimed natal chart outside
    Valentine's Full Moon inside, Steven Dale Green's untimed natal chart outside

    Michelle - Orkut shot Michelle YoungFeb 20, 2014

    I decided to draw up the untimed chart for Steven Dale Green because I was relatively sure I’d see a hard aspect between his natal Saturn and the transiting Sun. In fact, after I started doing a little research on his death, I learned he hadn’t died yesterday (the 19th), but on Saturday, the 15th, the day after the Full Moon! Even though I don’t have the time of death, I wasn’t disappointed.. It was pretty easy to put the pieces together when I had a look juat at the Full Moon chart, even though it’s likely that he killed himself after the Moon had made ingress to Virgo. I’m guessing that they might have found his body by the time the Moon had opposed Neptune–and natal Mars was making a 20-minute partile square to transiting Neptune–although I suppose it’s quite possible that the Moon was opposing Mercury at the time of death since Mercury was involved in the Full Moon by conjunction to the Sun–and squaring both transiting Saturn as well as his natal Saturn. His natal Saturn was most likely making a partile square to the transiting Sun.

    That’s not to say that Saturn’s square to these bodies would automatically put one in a position of “most likely suicide.” It doesn’t. The natal chart might give some proclivity toward depression and so on, but the transiting chart would have more than one configuration to back up the conclusions one might make. His natal Moon in Libra would also have been lending to the aspects that would have brought him to the point of no return. He would most likely have been born at a time when the Moon had made aspects to the Cardinal T-square with Uranus opposed to his natal Moon, and the Moon squaring the Pluto-Venus conjunction in opposition to natal Jupiter.

    It seems like the aspects were just too perfect on Saturday. He wasn’t about to turn back on his decision. Remorse for a crime isn’t always enough, is it? It’s a shame, however, that he was more concerned about whether his sentence was less fair than what the other soldier had than he was about the act itself. Seems to me, he just didn’t get it.

    Saturn called him on it.


    Michelle Young

    I thought I was done with this thread for now–until the discussions start again, but Saturn said there was more. When I saw the headline, I knew I had to run with this one:

    We speak about Saturn in its 27 to 32-year cycle. Most people tend to see this as 28-30; but the feelings accompanying the Saturn Return are often significantly longer, so we’re experiencing the rise and fall as this particular transit hits us in the late 20s. But we endure various tests of our goals, our maturity, even of our emotions roughly every 7.5 years. Sometimes it might be 7; other times it can be as long as 8. So when the Times of India (TOI) published the story of Karthika, a 14-year-old girl who committed suicide on Monday–the result of bullying–I got curious to see whether my suspicions were accurate that she might have been going on 15.

    Girl commits suicide over teasing, kin besiege school

    I looked in the ephemeris since her date of birth, obviously, wasn’t going to be in the newspapers. In 2000, Saturn was in Taurus, and the last three months of the year, it was back in direct motion–in opposition to where is now.

    The correlation brings to mind a quote by Carlos Castaneda on a graphic I posted in Facebook today:

    Saturn's Lessons

    We see a similar testing period around the ages of 7.5, 22.5, 35-38 (depending on the speed Saturn is traveling at that time) and around 42-44–about the same time that Uranus is opposed to its natal position. And the squares, of course, continue at that pattern for the rest of our lives.

    I remember losing a friend to leukemia when we were about 7. I lost other friends to tragedies when I was 15, the same year I was hit by two cars and had to learn to walk again. In fact, 4 of those friends died in one car accident on a stormy night. 15 was also a rough year for me because I was taking geometry with a teacher who couldn’t teach–and to think I ended up in a field where geometric angles would speak so loudly to me!

    India - 14-yo female suicide

    Back to this article and the tragedy surrounding the death of this young girl: According to the TOI, she died about 6 pm on Monday, the 31st of August 2015. I cast the chart for Chennai (Madras) and immediately spotted the Sun-Jupiter conjunction in opposition to Neptune with the closest point at a 38-minute partile between the Sun-Neptune opposing points. Jupiter sat on the 7th house cusp.

    There is no dominance between the Northern and Southern hemispheres of the chart, but it has a distinctly Western 3rd quadrant emphasis pointing to her being deeply affected by others’ reactions to her–even if she “only” imagined it. Making matters worse, take note that Saturn was at the peak of the chart with Neptune in a 26-minute partile square to the Midheaven (MC) if this actually happened exactly at 6 pm. While I highly doubt that to have been the case since the Ascendant (ASC) is just as likely to have been in late degrees of Aquarius in square to Saturn, and the same tragedy could have occurred.

    It also bears noting that the Moon-Mercury opposition conjuncted the Moon’s Nodes with Mercury and the North Node in Venus-ruled Libra while the Moon and the South Node were in Mars-ruled Aries. This is significant since there was a 5-minute partile conjunction of Mars and Venus Retrograde (Rx) on Monday at about 6 pm.

    But keep in mind as well how Neptune can confuse us. Neptune was already opposing the Sun and Jupiter in an out-of-sign square to Saturn at the MC with Saturn serving as the arm of a mutable T-square. Yet regardless of whether the angles were mutable or fixed in this case, that T-square would have been close enough to create the type of energy taking place.

    Whether or not you’ve noted my saying this before, Saturn in square to Neptune is what I call “the peeling of Life’s onion.” Whether by conjunction or square or opposition. it’s painful at best. You feel like you don’t know up from down, and the earth on which you are standing often feels like it’s crumbling beneath your feet. It’s hard to maintain focus, and decision making can even be a huge, potentially insurmountable challenge. Imagine what this might have felt like to a 14-year-old girl who took her life on Monday.

    As if all of this wasn’t enough, there were four quindeciles (165°) in action between the Sun and Chiron, Mercury and Uranus, Mercury and Chiron, and Jupiter and Chiron–not including the Venus-Mars conjunction in quindecile to the Ascendant for all the reasons I mentioned above. The Mercury-Uranus quindecile pointed to her longing for acceptance, just as Mercury’s quindecile to Chiron did. But failing that, the Sun and Jupiter in quindecile to Chiron moved her to act based on her feelings at that moment.

    While the other students at the school may not have understood the combined role they each played in her death, her teacher said she didn’t talk much and “hardly mingled with her classmates.” If this is the case, it would seem to indicate that Neptune was indeed on the Ascendant. A minor point to be sure. A tragedy remains in 14-year-old Karthika being gone–way too young…

    A Ballade Of Suicide
    Gilbert Keith Chesterton

    The gallows in my garden, people say,
    Is new and neat and adequately tall;
    I tie the noose on in a knowing way
    As one that knots his necktie for a ball;
    But just as all the neighbours–on the wall–
    Are drawing a long breath to shout “Hurray!”
    The strangest whim has seized me. . . . After all
    I think I will not hang myself to-day.

    To-morrow is the time I get my pay–
    My uncle’s sword is hanging in the hall–
    I see a little cloud all pink and grey–
    Perhaps the rector’s mother will not call– I fancy that I heard from Mr. Gall
    That mushrooms could be cooked another way–
    I never read the works of Juvenal–
    I think I will not hang myself to-day.

    The world will have another washing-day;
    The decadents decay; the pedants pall;
    And H.G. Wells has found that children play,
    And Bernard Shaw discovered that they squall,
    Rationalists are growing rational–
    And through thick woods one finds a stream astray
    So secret that the very sky seems small–
    I think I will not hang myself to-day.


    Prince, I can hear the trumpet of Germinal,
    The tumbrils toiling up the terrible way;
    Even to-day your royal head may fall,
    I think I will not hang myself to-day.


    Expecto Patronum

    We are about to say bye-bye to Saturn from Scorpio. But as I understand (except for the Sa-Re people), we are all affected by Saturn being in any house. How will a Sag-Saturn going to be for us Scorpios? Is it moving to the second house for us? Is it less important or does it just highlight a different part of our lives ruled by the second house?

    Also, Irene asked long time back, but I didn’t understand very well – How is Saturn in Scorpio different for Sa return Scorpios as compared to people with Sa elsewhere in their chart?


    Michelle Young

    Hi Expecto,

    [quote=1766]We are about to say bye-bye to Saturn from Scorpio. But as I understand (except for the Sa-Re people), we are all affected by Saturn being in any house. How will a Sag-Saturn going to be for us Scorpios? Is it moving to the second house for us? Is it less important or does it just highlight a different part of our lives ruled by the second house?

    Also, Irene asked long time back, but I didn’t understand very well – How is Saturn in Scorpio different for Sa return Scorpios as compared to people with Sa elsewhere in their chart?


    Even the Saturn Return people will be affected by Saturn’s presence in whatever house it’s transiting. At some level, by the Solar perspective of what Saturn will be doing after it leaves Scorpio, we’d be looking at the Solar second house. That brings to mind the issue of values in addition to earnings.

    Consider how values enter into your life: your moral fiber, your sense of ethics and your self-image. How that will relate to the individual chart depends, of course, on your house cusps. In your specific case, Saturn will be transiting your fifth house. You’ll be looking at responsibilities more than entertainment although you might be looking at investing at this time. (I can’t find where Irene said that unless you were talking about the Saturn Return post she made back then, said it.)

    Now in all fairness to you, Expecto, I will tell you that you’ve really been going through this house with Saturn inside for a while. So the only thing is more about the focus. I mentioned your possibly investing, but that doesn’t mean I’d encourage your gambling or taking chances on longshots. It’s not like that. This is more about your looking at if you’re going to invest, you’d be inclined to be highly conservative. Do not invest all your savings; but I really don’t see your ever doing that.

    You may find yourself in a relationship where one of you is the parent–and strongly focused on you, btw. You probably won’t feel all that inclined to do a song and dance at party. In fact, you may be very resistant to many parties, preferring to be quieter and more subdued for now.

    Now Expecto, Saturn has been transiting your 5th house for two years. Nothing really will change along those lines. On the other hand, the next year, Saturn will move into your sixth house, then backtrack–of course–into your fifth before returning to the 6th. Start working on improving your health now however you see the need. When it moves into your 6th house after the first of the year, make sure you take care of not only your health but your dental health as well.

    In the 5th house, btw, be aware that Saturn’s passage over natal Uranusand Jupiter may make you feel like any luck you have had has, as the saying goes, “gone south.” Be patient. Make sure that you retain control over your life instead of bending to any demands from parents, bosses, etc. In some cases, that may see you building enough tension that you simply up and leave. It’s not an easy period, I’m afraid. In fact, you may feel a lot of stress that you’ll realize this is perhaps what caused me to caution you to take additional care of your health.

    Above all, Expecto, avoid doing what others are demanding of you (I’m almost 100% sure this is family stuff and not related to your job), and worry about staying as calm, cool and collected as you can while sticking to your guns and your beliefs. Remember, this is still your life and no one else’s. Don’t let the guilt trips start for that matter either. 🙂 :rose:

    Hope that helps.


    Michelle Young

    One more thing, Expecto… I do believe you’ll find this transit more about how it relates to that issue of values on top of others trying to force/pressure you into doing what they want. Please remember, this is your life. You are still the captain of that ship. 🙂


    Expecto Patronum

    And I thought I was through. 🙂 Thanks for such fine details, M!
    Are you talking about the transit from 5th to 6th house, or the whole period where Saturn will be in my 6th house? ‘Coz the latter is a long one. :scratch: 🙂


    Michelle Young

    One of the problems of seeing only the transits according to the sign in which it’s placed, Expecto, is the likelihood that the planet may still be in the same house and only the “spicing” changes in the midst of the transit. Your fifth house is an excellent example of this event–just as most of us will notice when we’re experiencing these transits.

    Of all my clients, in fact, I have literally one client whose Ascendant falls at 00 Aries 00. But even that client doesn’t have all of the houses showing at that 00°00 point. So the transits won’t even show in that chart the same. I believe this particular example points out the problem that occurs as a result of that effort to see the shift between signs (known as ingress) based on houses switching too. The problem of following one’s chart based on Sun sign alone confuses those who don’t understand the construction of the chart and the houses and that they aren’t all equal unless one actually uses the Equal House system.

    It’s more likely that one will have ingresses taking place in the midest of a house where those transits have already been occurring than in a new house when it’s happened.

    Does that explain how it falls a bit more clearly, Expecto?

    Are you talking about the transit from 5th to 6th house, or the whole period where Saturn will be in my 6th house? ‘Coz the latter is a long one.

    Oh really, Expecto? Are you so sure about that? From what I’m seeing, Saturn will be in your 6th house for precisely 30°37′. 🙂 Its transit of your 5th house has lasted (and it’s still happening) 34°00′. See what I mean? 😉

    Oh, and thanks so much for the compliment. It’s always nice to hear.

    [quote=1780]And I thought I was through. :) Thanks for such fine details, M!
    Are you talking about the transit from 5th to 6th house, or the whole period where Saturn will be in my 6th house? ‘Coz the latter is a long one. :scratch: :)



    Expecto Patronum

    “In the 5th house, btw, be aware that Saturn’s passage over natal Uranusand Jupiter may make you feel like any luck you have had has, as the saying goes, “gone south.” Be patient.”

    When is this going to be? This year or the next year?


    Michelle Young

    Your Uranus is in the 5th house and your Jupiter is in the 5th and 6th because you have Jupiter close to the 6th house cusp. You’ve been through part of the conjunction to Uranus already (earlier this year), so this one shouldn’t be too bad but you’ll have Saturn conjunct your Jupiter most of 2016. You can expect to find yourself very eager to break free of restrictions. Hang on because you may be screaming on the inside before you’re finally beyond it. You’ve got about another year in this phase, Expecto. 🙂

    No fair yelling: I’m just the messenger. :wacko:


    Expecto Patronum

    Ah another whole year!! I’m off to the Himalayas. 🙂

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